DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 18 December 1998 Volume 03 : Number 602 In this issue: Re: broken turbo Re: broken turbo Re: Water Injection Re: water injection RE: water injection RE: Flow rates for nozzles Re: Water Injection Re: water injection Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #601 RE: water injection RE: Water Injection Re: water injection RE: Flow rates for nozzles RE: water injection Specs for Bosch sensors Water Injection Thoughts RE: water injection Re: water injection Unusual computer request RE: water injection See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Parker" Date: 18 Dec 98 23:30:16 +1200 Subject: Re: broken turbo West, David wrote: >If a turbo housing failed in some way near the oil galleries is it >true that you generally only get oil into the combustion chamber when >under vacuum conditions where as boost will pressurise the oil >galleries? Secondly, when this oil burns will it be mainly whitish >smoke? Thirdly, should this oil be present throughout the intake >manifold or is it fine enough mist that it is hard to detect. I have had experiance with Minis sucking up oil through their crank case breather system. When a Mini with the right type of breathers goes hard round a corner the oil can get thrown into the breathers and it goes straight into the inlet manifold. If this happens you get huge clouds of white smoke. If the rings have gone, then you get blue smoke. I don't know about turbos, but large amounts of oil into the inlet manifold can produce white smoke. - -- Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ ------------------------------ From: Fredrik Skog Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:11:46 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: broken turbo On 18 Dec 1998, Tom Parker wrote: > West, David wrote: > > >If a turbo housing failed in some way near the oil galleries is it > >true that you generally only get oil into the combustion chamber when > >under vacuum conditions where as boost will pressurise the oil > >galleries? Secondly, when this oil burns will it be mainly whitish > >smoke? Thirdly, should this oil be present throughout the intake > >manifold or is it fine enough mist that it is hard to detect. > > I have had experiance with Minis sucking up oil through their crank case > breather system. When a Mini with the right type of breathers goes hard round > a corner the oil can get thrown into the breathers and it goes straight into > the inlet manifold. If this happens you get huge clouds of white smoke. If the > rings have gone, then you get blue smoke. > > I don't know about turbos, but large amounts of oil into the inlet manifold > can produce white smoke. I run my turbo engine without valve seals on the exhaust valves, because they don't get enough lubrication othervise. On every startup this produces a large cloud of white smoke due to oil running down the valve shafts into the cylinder. > -- > Tom Parker - tparker@xxx.nz > - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Umeå University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg@xxx.se Taffelstråket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog/ 903 53 Umeå Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA ------------------------------ From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:22:32 EST Subject: Re: Water Injection Hi, Years ago, (1978) I ran a water injector system on a 74 Vega BT. It was just a basic 1950's style one that was designed to leak air past a needle valve, bubble it through a bottle of water under the hood and pass it into the engine between the PCV valve and carb base. It was great for milage, simple and we would open the needle, do a nice freeway run for a few miles and then street race it. Never found any soot ot speak of in the spark plugs, and never pinged when we ran it. We tried an Edelbrock water injection unit on a high compression 383 dodge about the same time and never really got conclusive results. Look through the 1970's hot rod magazines and you will find a plethora of water injection ideas. It isn't new, My father had told me of some that his friends worked with one that used the cast iron exaust manifolds to drip water on and then pull the steam into the carb by a pipe running up from the manifold. A strange possibility, would be to use a Holley power valve and a spare float bown with a large remote tank and pump. These are not electonic injection, but they have pretty much all been tried. Fred Harmon WE ALLWAYS HEAR ABOUT WATER INJECTION FOR TURBO OR BLOWN CARS. WHAT ABOUT NORMALLY ASPORATED CARS IS THERE ANY BENIFIT IN INSTALLING WATER INJECTION HERE. FOR EXAMPLE HIGH COMPRESSION ETC... ------------------------------ From: FHPREMACH@xxx.com Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:35:22 EST Subject: Re: water injection In a message dated 12/17/98 11:13:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, edwards@xxx.net writes: << Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must say. The only thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus prevent detonation. With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water injection is about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use water injection> I would partly agree, but none of us seem to have our fuel blended for the day we are driving, like an F1 car, Ferrari did use it heavily, everyone has tried it, and it has benefits like reducing the amount of carbon and other solids from forming into compression ratio stuffer blocks. If you have done much work on long term tests with some of the available unleaded fuels you will find it is a modestly good approach. ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:16:32 -0500 Subject: RE: water injection A good point but I also don't know any F1 cars that make 1000 miles before an overhaul either (or atleast a teardown / inspection - cleanup). And waterinjection is heavy. Actually, it was used by one of the automakers in the early 60's but didn't go over with the consumers. Rick > -----Original Message----- > From: Pedro Haynes [SMTP:edwards@xxx.net] > Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 12:51 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: water injection > > Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must say. The only > thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus prevent detonation. > With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use > calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water injection is > about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use water injection? > > > > > >Running out of water on a water injection system will cause the engine > >to knock, so getting too much air (and given the amount of air ithat > >most engines use, I really cannot see a hose of the size you would be > >using suppling enough air to make any significant difference). > >Running out of water when you are using it to allow more advanced > >timing would be potentially fatal to your engine no matter how you do > >it. Probably it would be best not to run out of water with any > >system, since the water pump will also probably pump air pretty good > >too. Also the nozzles may limit the air soo much that there is not > >enough volume to worry about (of air). > > > > Roger > > > >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 TMead17327@xxx.com wrote: > > > >> Wouldn't there be a problem with leaning out when the water ran out? > It > >> doesn't sound very good to suddenly inject extra air into the manifold > without > >> telling the fuel system about it. I guess it depends on how you > measure > your > >> intake air (MAP, MAF, etc.) > >> > >> Tommy > >> TMead17327@xxx.com > >> > >> In a message dated 12/17/98 11:57:32 AM Central Standard Time, > >> rah@xxx.net writes: > >> > >> << > >> Here is an odd thought, what about putting the water in a pressure > >> tank of some sort and putting compressed air over it. Enough volume > >> of compressed air, and you should be able to maintain a fairly decent > >> pressure until most of the water runs out. You would of course have > >> to air up after putting the water in, and probably put the thing in > >> the trunk or someplace with a similar amount of room. And probably > >> you would need a pressure regulator on the water, or some way to sense > >> the watter pressure, and adjust the nozzle PW to get the correct flow. > >> > >> Just an odd idea > >> Roger > >> >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:52:00 -0700 Subject: RE: Flow rates for nozzles >Yeap, that's simple alright. > >I wanted to avoid squirting anything on the compressor wheel directly. Indy >cars of old did this at the expense of turbines. Sounds like it worked fine >for you though. > > >Regards, > >Barry > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu >> [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Tom Sharpe >> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:50 PM >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: Flow rates for nozzles >> >> >> >> >> Barry E. King wrote: >> >> > Since this was initailly just a personal project I'd likely opt for the >> > simple approach. >> > >> >> I ran a sealed tank pressurized with boost pressure that used >> small windshield >> washer hose and an .080 brass nozzle to spray into the turbo >> inlet... three >> motors later, the turbo was working fine... 13 lbs boost on a 350 >> Chevy with a >> T04B-V2 and a 600 Holley. You want simple... there it is... >> >> Regards Tom >> >> I am thinking more in terms of spraying water on the cooling air side of the intercooler--or maybe onto some cel-dek or burlap type material located in front of the IC, so as to suck the temp of the cooling air going through the IC down somewhere near to the ambient WET BULB temp under high load conditions (sorta like the old desert coolers)--and thus get cooler, denser charge air indirectly instead of diluting it with H2O vapor. Wet bulb temps above 74 degrees F are pretty rare, even in Miami. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:56:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Water Injection On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, andy quaas wrote: > What about some type of substitute for water? Howz about alcohol? > I'm not a chemist, so i don't know much about this stuff. You can run > much more compression with alcohol, no? Just a thought. What is the > percentage of fuel:water ? > Probably the oldest, but still the best AFAIK, description of water injection is in Ricardos "High Speed Engines" I dont recall if it is in all editions, but it is in most. Well worth reading if you are interested in this subject. Oddly enough, alcohols main benefit is as an antifreeze rather than a power enhancer. ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:58:31 -0700 Subject: Re: water injection >Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must say. The only >thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus prevent detonation. >With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use >calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water injection is >about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use water injection? > > Wrong. H2O injection has just never been developed to its full potential. And the FI guys are neither divine nor infallible!! Plus, I have no idea what their rules say about using it. And it is truly scary to ponder how much better several of the people just on this list could do with that kind of money available to spend!! Regards, Greg >> >> >> ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:24:28 -0600 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #601 > From: "Mike Pilkenton" > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:12:36 -0800 > Subject: Re: Boiler Compound > > Joe, you wouldn't happen to work at Edwards AFB do you? I'm a flight test > engineer for the C-17 program here at Edwards! > > Mike Pilkenton, Major, USAF > C-17 Chief Engineer Not normally. But I will for a couple of weeks in March. There's a bunch of car nuts there. I've met three Camaro types and been to a couple of rod meets in Lancaster. I'll try to look you up in March. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban ------------------------------ From: "Barry E. King" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:54:10 -0700 Subject: RE: water injection Well, there are numerous examples to the contrary, but to each their own. Check the patent registration system. A number of companies are working on water injection for consumer and many other applications. Hybrid direct injection injectors and other methods or premixing water and fuel prior to combustion are on the books for gasoline, diesel and gas turbine applications. Water injection is GREAT for being able to tweak more power from an engine, reducing certain nasty emissions (NOx by products) and getting better fuel economy all at the same time. How is that not good? Water injection blows away any general purpose I/C in terms of efficiency. Using water-air charge coolers isn't any better unless you can keep ice in the coolant jacket. Not practical. The best you can hope for is usually ambient. The turbocharged Indy cars used to run nothing but water injection. No intercooler other than that. Furthermore water injection isn't subject to heat soak. It is hardly a "step back". It is the application of a viable and _proven_ technology. Sometimes the "right advance" and "sensible boost" are not the point and more importantly don't even come close to extracting the power output potential of an engine. In my particular case 15-17 psi is it for readily available (legal) pump fuel. Yet I can run 21 psi all day on this engine WITH the right fuel which (according to calculations) is 116 octane. Bursts of up to 25 psi or more are tolerated without destroying the engine. Legal (ie, unleaded, cat-friendly) 116 is not only rare but very expensive. Injecting water not only gets the effective octane rating closer to what is required, but offers the additional practical benefit of supplementing the existing air charge cooler adding even more power power potential. I certainly don't see any of this as a "waste of time". I suppose it is a matter of perspective. You either want to get more from what you've got or you don't. F1 cars are not limited to the same pump fuel as the consumer not to mention numerous other things that make the analogy dubious. Lot's of great ideas don't show up or last long on F1 or Indy cars due to arbitrary rules. We're talking about a registered street legal daily driven vehicle. One of the major benefits of a turbo charged powerplant as I see it in this situation is the variable power output. I can choose to putt about with very tame, streetable and easy to live with vehicle 90% of the time. When so inclined I can unleash nearly 600 HP simply by dropping the hammer. I want to do that safely and reasonably economically where practical. Water/alcohol injection is an excellent choice for such an application. Barry > -----Original Message----- > > Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must say. The only > thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus prevent detonation. > With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use > calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water injection is > about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use water injection? ------------------------------ From: "Barry E. King" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:59:24 -0700 Subject: RE: Water Injection When I say "water injection" I really mean "weater/alcohol injection". There is a benefit in mixing alcohol with the water up to a point. Water and alcohol mix readily. The alcohol will offer somewhat better combustion with the water injection. But only up to a point since volume for volume the power output from alcohol is less than dino fuels. Regards, Barry > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Jim Davies > Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 7:56 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Water Injection > > > > > On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, andy quaas wrote: > > > What about some type of substitute for water? Howz about alcohol? > > I'm not a chemist, so i don't know much about this stuff. You can run > > much more compression with alcohol, no? Just a thought. What is the > > percentage of fuel:water ? > > > Probably the oldest, but still the best AFAIK, description of water > injection is in Ricardos "High Speed Engines" I dont recall if it is in > all editions, but it is in most. Well worth reading if you are interested > in this subject. Oddly enough, alcohols main benefit is as an antifreeze > rather than a power enhancer. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:47:30 -0500 Subject: Re: water injection - -----Original Message----- From: Pedro Haynes To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 1:35 AM Subject: water injection Item 1, not all classes of racing allow intercooling. 2. Not everyone can afford a perfect intercooling setup. 3. Some folks like to tinker. 4. Are you running a pneumatic valve train?. 5. While novel, F1 has been increasingly distancing themselves from any real world applications. 6. Our diesel tractor would rate a detonation ignition, and does very well thank, with lots of water. 7. Speaking as someone that has actually benefited from using it, I can say it is very effective. 8. If you care to research it, try Sir Harry Ricardo's, "High speed interanal comustion Engine" book. Bruce >Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must say. The only >thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus prevent detonation. >With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use >calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water injection is >about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use water injection? > > > > >>Running out of water on a water injection system will cause the engine >>to knock, so getting too much air (and given the amount of air ithat >>most engines use, I really cannot see a hose of the size you would be >>using suppling enough air to make any significant difference). >>Running out of water when you are using it to allow more advanced >>timing would be potentially fatal to your engine no matter how you do >>it. Probably it would be best not to run out of water with any >>system, since the water pump will also probably pump air pretty good >>too. Also the nozzles may limit the air soo much that there is not >>enough volume to worry about (of air). >> >> Roger >> >>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 TMead17327@xxx.com wrote: >> >>> Wouldn't there be a problem with leaning out when the water ran out? It >>> doesn't sound very good to suddenly inject extra air into the manifold >without >>> telling the fuel system about it. I guess it depends on how you measure >your >>> intake air (MAP, MAF, etc.) >>> >>> Tommy >>> TMead17327@xxx.com >>> >>> In a message dated 12/17/98 11:57:32 AM Central Standard Time, >>> rah@xxx.net writes: >>> >>> << >>> Here is an odd thought, what about putting the water in a pressure >>> tank of some sort and putting compressed air over it. Enough volume >>> of compressed air, and you should be able to maintain a fairly decent >>> pressure until most of the water runs out. You would of course have >>> to air up after putting the water in, and probably put the thing in >>> the trunk or someplace with a similar amount of room. And probably >>> you would need a pressure regulator on the water, or some way to sense >>> the watter pressure, and adjust the nozzle PW to get the correct flow. >>> >>> Just an odd idea >>> Roger >>> >> >>> >> >> >> > ------------------------------ From: "Barry E. King" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:06:05 -0700 Subject: RE: Flow rates for nozzles Okay. Spraying the intercooler is a great idea IMO. Some WRC cars come with I/C sprayers right from the factory, or used to. Spraying nitrous on the core would do the trick too ;) I wondered a while back about using a water-air charge cooler. When not in use you could use the a/c system chiller to cool the charge air coolant. When you needed to tap into the power you'd disable the a/c and have a few minutes of well below ambient air charge. It would be short lived and with the added expense of water-air intercoolers I discarded the idea. Might have merit somewhere though. Regards, Barry > -----Original Message----- > I am thinking more in terms of spraying water on the cooling air side of > the intercooler--or maybe onto some cel-dek or burlap type > material located > in front of the IC, so as to suck the temp of the cooling air > going through > the IC down somewhere near to the ambient WET BULB temp under high load > conditions (sorta like the old desert coolers)--and thus get > cooler, denser > charge air indirectly instead of diluting it with H2O vapor. Wet > bulb temps > above 74 degrees F are pretty rare, even in Miami. > > Regards, Greg > > ------------------------------ From: Pedro Haynes Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:22:40 -0400 Subject: RE: water injection One person claimed that it actually helps clean the combustion chamber. Any one ever notice that after a car is over hauled that it gets faster and faster, that is because the coke insulates the chamber so instead of the heat giong into the water jacket it does some useful work. In addition does water not cause rusting? Water injection is just a reason for doing a poor job, if you want an engine to give 600 bhp and there is a chance you may blow it because it is being pushed to the limit, do not build it. Instead get an engine that will produce the power and not burst at the seams. Then if you still want to inject something with water in it, just design an engine to run an alcohol/ water mix >A good point but I also don't know any F1 cars that make 1000 miles before >an overhaul either (or atleast a teardown / inspection - cleanup). And >waterinjection is heavy. Actually, it was used by one of the automakers in >the early 60's but didn't go over with the consumers. > >Rick > >>> >> Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must say. The only >> thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus prevent detonation. >> With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use >> calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water injection is >> about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use water injection? >> >> >> >> >> >Running out of water on a water injection system will cause the engine >> >to knock, so getting too much air (and given the amount of air ithat >> >most engines use, I really cannot see a hose of the size you would be >> >using suppling enough air to make any significant difference). >> >Running out of water when you are using it to allow more advanced >> >timing would be potentially fatal to your engine no matter how you do >> >it. Probably it would be best not to run out of water with any >> >system, since the water pump will also probably pump air pretty good >> >too. Also the nozzles may limit the air soo much that there is not >> >enough volume to worry about (of air). >> > >> > Roger >> > >> >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 TMead17327@xxx.com wrote: >> > >> >> Wouldn't there be a problem with leaning out when the water ran out? >> It >> >> doesn't sound very good to suddenly inject extra air into the manifold >> without >> >> telling the fuel system about it. I guess it depends on how you >> measure >> your >> >> intake air (MAP, MAF, etc.) >> >> >> >> Tommy >> >> TMead17327@xxx.com >> >> >> >> In a message dated 12/17/98 11:57:32 AM Central Standard Time, >> >> rah@xxx.net writes: >> >> >> >> << >> >> Here is an odd thought, what about putting the water in a pressure >> >> tank of some sort and putting compressed air over it. Enough volume >> >> of compressed air, and you should be able to maintain a fairly decent >> >> pressure until most of the water runs out. You would of course have >> >> to air up after putting the water in, and probably put the thing in >> >> the trunk or someplace with a similar amount of room. And probably >> >> you would need a pressure regulator on the water, or some way to sense >> >> the watter pressure, and adjust the nozzle PW to get the correct flow. >> >> >> >> Just an odd idea >> >> Roger >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------ From: "James Montebello" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:17:22 -0800 Subject: Specs for Bosch sensors Anyone know where I can get specs on various Bosch sensors? Specifically, specs on oil pressure senders and how the voltage output relates to pressure. Are these things fairly standardized, or is every type of sender different? james montebello ------------------------------ From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:28:15 GMT Subject: Water Injection Thoughts For those considering the use of normal fuel injectors for water injection, consider adding some lubricant to avoid the corrosion problems. For straight water, nothing beats dirt cheap machinist's cutting oil - completely water soluble. About 3 tablespoons per gallon (memory serving me right) and it makes the milky white lubricant that you see around all machine shops. Enough to lubricate but not enough to effect combustion. PS this two buck a can stuff makes about 500 gallons or more of "water pump lubricant" - who says there is no profit in hucksterism???? If you are running some alcohol or other joy juice, consider adding synthetic castor oil ( two cycle oil ) in a small percentage. Its a truly excellent lubricant and its good enough to be the sole lubricant for a 20,000 rpm plus two cycle engine after being diluted by straight nitromethane and methanol - stuff that turns auto oils into yellowish snot. Remember that model airplane fuel is a blend of nitro, methanol, and oil. And these fuel components are less than kind to metal - yet they last a long time and only professionals bother to flush and spray lubricate yada yada yada. A side note - some karters running four cycle engines add synthetic castor oil to the fuel. They report the engine runs smoother and about a 1000 rpm faster. Makes sense. A small amount of high quality lubricant with extreme film strength would keep the cylinder above the rings lubricated and might have a significant effect on friction. Remember again - this in not Dino Oil - - tis a very high temperature lubricant designed to lubricate in a highly corrosive mixture all the rotating and sliding parts of a two cycle engine and have a minimal effect on combustion. A last thought on evaporation. The evaporation rate of water is very low below its boiling point 100c stp. Unless your intake charge temperature exceeds 100 c or hot spots in between, you will be carrying droplets into the cylinder. The primary effect of adding methanol to water for injection is that it greatly increases the evaporative cooling effect, even though alcohol will absorb less than 1/4 the total heat that water will. Due to lower boiling point and far faster evaporation rate. Simply atomizing water will not cause it to change from a liquid to a vapor - it takes 100c STP to accomplish that. If you were "whacky", you might consider adding steam after the throttle at *** PART THROTTLE ***. This would greatly reduce the pumping work and recover some waste heat. At less than wot, this would not cause a loss of power. David Vizard has written repeatedly about water injection and high compression NA - considers it an excellent compromise. Small factoid to consider. Ignore geometric compression ratio - geekishly useless trivia. Consider effective compression ratio. Static effective compression ratio is the cylinder volume at intake valve closing divided by the chamber volume at piston TDC - a number that is considerably less then geometric and reflects the effect of cam and rod geometry as well. Dynamic effect compression ratio is simply static effective compression ratio multiplied by volumetric efficiency ( VE ) 100 % = 14.7~ PSIA in the cylinder. Boost increases it accordingly. Throttle reduces it. Water injection for detonation control is needed only when the dynamic effective compression ratio exceeds the octane rating of the fuel - usually a very small percentage of time. Vizard and others recommend using just enough to control detonation. More than that takes you into diminishing returns - but hey, I like being out there anyway. Too much, too much, too much is never enough anyway. For perspectives sake - think about PC magazine - where the goodness of the review is factored by the bigness of the advertising spread. Ever see an advertiser with 5 pages of ads get slammed in a review?. Corky Bell sells intercoolers at a grand a pop - electronic wazoo whoop de do's at bazillions etc. It would not be in his own enlightened self interest to slam a simple effective way that does not transfer massive bucks to his wallet. But I guess I am cynical to think that simple water injection - good enough for WWII fighter pilots to bet there life on, proven and effective for almost a century is now junk and must be replaced by Crock of Sheeeets latest high priced catalog wonder item. Silly me. The Luddites were RIGHT!! Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:32:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: water injection > One person claimed that it actually helps clean the combustion chamber. Any > one ever notice that after a car is over hauled that it gets faster and > faster, that is because the coke insulates the chamber so instead of the > heat giong into the water jacket it does some useful work. In addition does The problem however, is that the coke also retains heat and causes pre-ignition on the next cycle. A shiny clean chamber can reflect heat. I'm told the ceramic coatings like techline are excellent at keeping heat in the combustion chamber. FWIW--I've run an engine on a mix of gasoline and water (w/ a detergent to allow mixing) and actually gotten a performance increase. Winter is a great time for doubters to play lawnmower games and run cheap experiments. Water has some awesome properties that can be taken advantage of at normal (as far as an engine goes) temperatures. Back to the original question...Gasoline injectors might be OK for short term water injection. Corrosion would almost certainly be a problem when the water is allowed to sit in the injectors (like while you're away on vacation). If experiments are done please let us know how it turns out. - -greg ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:44:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: water injection F1 and Indy type cars don't use gas so why would they need water injection? The stuff they are using is much higher octane, so detonation is much harder. Roger On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Pedro Haynes wrote: > Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must say. The only > thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus prevent detonation. > With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use > calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water injection is > about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use water injection? > > > > > >Running out of water on a water injection system will cause the engine > >to knock, so getting too much air (and given the amount of air ithat > >most engines use, I really cannot see a hose of the size you would be > >using suppling enough air to make any significant difference). > >Running out of water when you are using it to allow more advanced > >timing would be potentially fatal to your engine no matter how you do > >it. Probably it would be best not to run out of water with any > >system, since the water pump will also probably pump air pretty good > >too. Also the nozzles may limit the air soo much that there is not > >enough volume to worry about (of air). > > > > Roger > > > >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 TMead17327@xxx.com wrote: > > > >> Wouldn't there be a problem with leaning out when the water ran out? It > >> doesn't sound very good to suddenly inject extra air into the manifold > without > >> telling the fuel system about it. I guess it depends on how you measure > your > >> intake air (MAP, MAF, etc.) > >> > >> Tommy > >> TMead17327@xxx.com > >> > >> In a message dated 12/17/98 11:57:32 AM Central Standard Time, > >> rah@xxx.net writes: > >> > >> << > >> Here is an odd thought, what about putting the water in a pressure > >> tank of some sort and putting compressed air over it. Enough volume > >> of compressed air, and you should be able to maintain a fairly decent > >> pressure until most of the water runs out. You would of course have > >> to air up after putting the water in, and probably put the thing in > >> the trunk or someplace with a similar amount of room. And probably > >> you would need a pressure regulator on the water, or some way to sense > >> the watter pressure, and adjust the nozzle PW to get the correct flow. > >> > >> Just an odd idea > >> Roger > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: DAVE_HEMPSTEAD@xxx.com Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:02:36 -0500 Subject: Unusual computer request Hi everyone, I have an odd request. Does anyone out there have a 'spare' PCM from a 94 or 95 GM car (preferably from a V8)? I'd like to 'borrow' it. I'd like to unsolder the eeprom, dump its contents, and maybe (if I'm really motivated) trace out the circuit board. My primary goal is to get the software out of it (in preparation of my modifying the software in my own PCM). Anyway, if anyone has a spare that they could part with, I'd be glad to return it once I'm done, but I doubt that it would still be in working order. Just a request, Dave Hempstead ------------------------------ From: "James Montebello" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:58:48 -0800 Subject: RE: water injection F1 does use gasoline, and has since 1948. What they call "gasoline" sometimes varied considerably from what comes out of the local pump, but it's supposed to be 104 RON unleaded gas, and they test for this. F1 cars also aren't turbocharged anymore, haven't been for 10 years, so there's no problem with elevated temps caused by boost. When they ran turbos, water injection *was* used pretty widely (at least up to about '85, when Williams was disqualified one race because they refilled the water tanks prior to being weighed at race end, raising the car to 20lbs over the minimum weight from 10-15lbs under). These engines all used gigantic intercoolers, too. When you're running 5 bar (72.5psi!) of boost (as they did in the heyday of the turbo era), anything you can do to prevent detonation is a Good Thing. Getting 1500hp out of 1500cc is not an easy thing. IndyCars (ChampCars, CART, whatever) all run methanol, and have for decades. A common (and more effective) alternative to water injection is alcohol injection (actually, usually a mix), and methanol *is* an alcohol. I'm speaking over my head here, but it may very well be that the evap cooling of methanol is so good that water injection is simply superfluous. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Roger > Heflin > Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 9:44 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: water injection > > > > F1 and Indy type cars don't use gas so why would they need water > injection? The stuff they are using is much higher octane, so > detonation is much harder. > > Roger > > On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Pedro Haynes wrote: > > > Running a water injection system is a waste of time I must > say. The only > > thing it does is cool the combustion chamber and thus > prevent detonation. > > With proper intercooling, the right advance and sensable boost, (use > > calculations), there is no need for water injection. Water > injection is > > about 20 steps back, do you know of any F1 cars that use > water injection? > > > > > > > > > > >Running out of water on a water injection system will > cause the engine > > >to knock, so getting too much air (and given the amount > of air ithat > > >most engines use, I really cannot see a hose of the size > you would be > > >using suppling enough air to make any significant difference). > > >Running out of water when you are using it to allow more advanced > > >timing would be potentially fatal to your engine no matter > how you do > > >it. Probably it would be best not to run out of water with any > > >system, since the water pump will also probably pump air > pretty good > > >too. Also the nozzles may limit the air soo much that there is not > > >enough volume to worry about (of air). > > > > > > Roger > > > > > >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 TMead17327@xxx.com wrote: > > > > > >> Wouldn't there be a problem with leaning out when the > water ran out? It > > >> doesn't sound very good to suddenly inject extra air > into the manifold > > without > > >> telling the fuel system about it. I guess it depends on > how you measure > > your > > >> intake air (MAP, MAF, etc.) > > >> > > >> Tommy > > >> TMead17327@xxx.com > > >> > > >> In a message dated 12/17/98 11:57:32 AM Central Standard Time, > > >> rah@xxx.net writes: > > >> > > >> << > > >> Here is an odd thought, what about putting the water in > a pressure > > >> tank of some sort and putting compressed air over it. > Enough volume > > >> of compressed air, and you should be able to maintain a > fairly decent > > >> pressure until most of the water runs out. You would > of course have > > >> to air up after putting the water in, and probably put > the thing in > > >> the trunk or someplace with a similar amount of room. > And probably > > >> you would need a pressure regulator on the water, or > some way to sense > > >> the watter pressure, and adjust the nozzle PW to get > the correct flow. > > >> > > >> Just an odd idea > > >> Roger > > >> >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V3 #602 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".