DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 14 August 1998 Volume 03 : Number 378 In this issue: Re: Re. Blankety blank blank. Re: Re. Blankety blank blank. Techline coatings [not EFI related] Re: Blankety blank blank. Re: Trouble Codes/Limp Home Mode Re: Cooling fan Operation Re: Techline coatings [not EFI related] Re: Techline coatings [not EFI related] fuel pump wiring Re: Techline coatings [not EFI related] Re: Bench ecms Re: Bench ecms Re: fuel pump wiring IAC longevity problems Re: Trouble Codes/Limp Home Mode Re: IAC longevity problems Re: Blankety blank blank. Re: Trouble Codes/Limp Home Mode Re: Bench ecms Re: Blankety blank blank. RE: IAC longevity problems Re: Blankety blank blank. Re: IAC longevity problems RE: Blankety blank blank. Re: IAC longevity problems Initial Bench ecm testing (Programming 101 included) Re: Blankety blank blank. Re: Blankety blank blank. Re: Cooling fan Operation Re: L-Jet->LH-Jet See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wen Yen Chan Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:09:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Re. Blankety blank blank. I have found that only the shorter wavelength UV lamps erase EPROMS. The longer wavelength lamps just don't have enough energy per photon to kick the electrons out of the floating gate. Generally the lamps stamped "GERMICIDAL" work well (they have unfiltered quartz bulbs). Most EPROMS I've played with erase within 3 min. when stuck against the bulb. Some of my friends erase devices in seconds with UV curing lamps. l8tr Wen On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Rich Mauruschat wrote: > >Yes, I know this is crude. Yes, I know an eraser is the > >proper way. Yes I'm going to buy one. In the mean time, > >why won't these chips erase? > > >Shannen > > > Shannen, > >From my own experience, I think your right - it's a wavelength thing; not > any old UV will do to erase eproms. I once had a load of eproms to erase > (150!) and tried using a UV exposure box for PCB artwork to do them all at > once..... no amount of time in there seemed to have any effect. Ended up > doing them 6 at a time in a proper eraser, 10 minutes no problem. I'm not > sure of the details of the required wavelengths, anyone got anything to > offer on this one?? > > Rich. > > ------------------------------ From: Wen Yen Chan Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:09:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Re. Blankety blank blank. I have found that only the shorter wavelength UV lamps erase EPROMS. The longer wavelength lamps just don't have enough energy per photon to kick the electrons out of the floating gate. Generally the lamps stamped "GERMICIDAL" work well (they have unfiltered quartz bulbs). Most EPROMS I've played with erase within 3 min. when stuck against the bulb. Some of my friends erase devices in seconds with UV curing lamps. l8tr Wen On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Rich Mauruschat wrote: > >Yes, I know this is crude. Yes, I know an eraser is the > >proper way. Yes I'm going to buy one. In the mean time, > >why won't these chips erase? > > >Shannen > > > Shannen, > >From my own experience, I think your right - it's a wavelength thing; not > any old UV will do to erase eproms. I once had a load of eproms to erase > (150!) and tried using a UV exposure box for PCB artwork to do them all at > once..... no amount of time in there seemed to have any effect. Ended up > doing them 6 at a time in a proper eraser, 10 minutes no problem. I'm not > sure of the details of the required wavelengths, anyone got anything to > offer on this one?? > > Rich. > > ------------------------------ From: Ludis Langens Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:38:49 -0800 Subject: Techline coatings [not EFI related] A few months ago, there was some discussion about using coatings from http://www.deskmedia.com/~techline/ on various engine parts. It sounded like several of you have done this. Did you order direct from Techline, or get it through a retailer like Summit? (I'm think of putting Black Satin on exhaust manifolds and CBC2 on piston domes. The target engine will not be given another chance to bake it's oil into sludge!) - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Ludis Langens Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:10:30 -0800 Subject: Re: Blankety blank blank. "Thomas Matthews" wrote: > This probably doesn't apply, but if ya leave them in the eraser too long, or > they have been erased too many times, they won't erase... Did it once... Some years and jobs back, the hardware folks had a bunch of very hard to erase 4 megabit EPROMs. These were brand new, fresh out of the Japanese R&D lab, air expressed chips. They took overnight (or was it over a weekend?) to erase. The same eraser would erase a garden variety 27256 (or a 68HC711) in a snap, faster than I could compile new contents. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Ludis Langens Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:54:30 -0800 Subject: Re: Trouble Codes/Limp Home Mode "Bruce Plecan" wrote: > Is there a list of which trouble codes actually put the ecm into a > limp home mode Not as far as I've found in a limited set of ECMs. Of course, there might be some that do. Umm, just checked something. A code 51 (PROM sumcheck error) _will_ cause limp home mode, at least in some ECMs. Limp home mode is controlled by a hardware watchdog module. If the CPU stops tickling the watchdog, the watchdog declares the CPU out-to-lunch and takes over. There is no way for the CPU to directly cause limp home mode. In fact, the ALDL 3.9K limp home mode test mode just turns off the tickling. Eventually the watchdog decides the CPU is dead (even though its not) and causes limp home mode. Software that causes an action to occur by _not_ doing anything is kind of wierd. It is a strange way to program. I've also found a second such instance in an ECM: when the engine stalls, the program causes a hardware reset of the entire ECM. This took a long time to figure out. I guess GM didn't want to handle engine restarts in software. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:12:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Cooling fan Operation On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com wrote: > I've always been curious what the 93 LT1's used for a pcm and e-prom....is it > a 27256 or 27512????if it's a 27512 I would love to see a bin file from one of > those as it is probably very similar to the 93-95 pcm used in the chevy > trucks,of which I have a lot of addresses broken......If someone has a bin for > these, could I please have one??? > Thanks, > -Carl Summers > I don't know which it is. I read it out as a 27256. I don't know which one it really is. There weren't any obvious numbers. It is a 28 pin dip in a GM calpack. If you know a way to tell which one it is tell me, and I will see if I can determine which it is. The same with the computer, I can read all of the numbers off of it and we can see if the is the same computer in the trucks. And I have several bins, of slightly different modifications of the chip. Roger rah@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Techline coatings [not EFI related] >like several of you have done this. Did you order direct from Techline, >or get it through a retailer like Summit? (I'm think of putting Black >Satin on exhaust manifolds and CBC2 on piston domes. The target engine >will not be given another chance to bake it's oil into sludge!) I applyed that stuff on the pistons, from the top ring groove all across the top. Also, on the insides of the heads (chambers only of course) as well as both the intake and the exhaust valve. This allowed me to run higher compression with higher boost, and not blow things up until I took it to a ridiculous level. Works VERY well. Its a bitch to apply, make sure you have a big toaster oven . I ordered it from Summit, simply because I've ordered from them in the past and have been fairly happy with them, they are convienent. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ Wanted - RWD Buick Flywheel that fits the 3.8L / 4.1L! - - ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Techline coatings [not EFI related] >like several of you have done this. Did you order direct from Techline, >or get it through a retailer like Summit? (I'm think of putting Black >Satin on exhaust manifolds and CBC2 on piston domes. The target engine >will not be given another chance to bake it's oil into sludge!) I applyed that stuff on the pistons, from the top ring groove all across the top. Also, on the insides of the heads (chambers only of course) as well as both the intake and the exhaust valve. This allowed me to run higher compression with higher boost, and not blow things up until I took it to a ridiculous level. Works VERY well. Its a bitch to apply, make sure you have a big toaster oven . I ordered it from Summit, simply because I've ordered from them in the past and have been fairly happy with them, they are convienent. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ Wanted - RWD Buick Flywheel that fits the 3.8L / 4.1L! - - ------------------------------ From: andy quaas Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 05:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: fuel pump wiring I have crafted an in-tank fuel pump assembly (GM). I am ready to wire it up and i don't recall which wire takes the +12 and which is ground. Anybody know? I don't have any books with this info. Andy Quaas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:15:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Techline coatings [not EFI related] Techline wouldn't sell directly to me. I ordered some from Summit, and some from Speedway Motors. Shannen Ludis Langens wrote: > > A few months ago, there was some discussion about using coatings from > http://www.deskmedia.com/~techline/ on various engine parts. It sounded > like several of you have done this. Did you order direct from Techline, > or get it through a retailer like Summit? (I'm think of putting Black > Satin on exhaust manifolds and CBC2 on piston domes. The target engine > will not be given another chance to bake it's oil into sludge!) > > -- > Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:29:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Bench ecms - -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 11:59 PM Subject: Re: Bench ecms >Does bench ECM have wire to ALDL TCC pin? Yes it does, Scanner probably >looks for low voltage on apply pin to determine tcc on. If >voltage on that line is low for any reason, TCC must be >"on". In this case the scanner forces it low. Cheers Bruce > >Shannen > >Bruce Plecan wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: steve ravet >> Subject: Re: Bench ecms >> >> >> BTW, the scanner with the TCC "problem" is the MPSI. >> >> >> >> I'm gonna reread the manual (that's scary), and make sure I didn't >> >> miss something, but just a heads up for others playing along here. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Bruce The staff is really on edge with all these blinking lights, >> >> they keep looking for snow......... >> > >> >Hey! I noticed a similar thing on my MPSI. TCC is on while I'm sitting >> >in the driveway. Didn't think too much about it, figured it was a side >> >effect of putting the Caprice engine in the S-10. Does the TCC lockup >> >info come from the data stream or from the TCC pin in the ALDL? >> >> Looks like TCC pin, since with the scanner plugged in LED glows >> but not bright like when applied. >> >> My ecm >> >is 16136965. >> >> The gas mileage master emc, does a lean cruise. >> >> Cheers >> Bruce >> > >> >--steve >> > >> >-- >> >Steve Ravet >> >International Meta Systems >> >http://www.imes.com >> >steve@xxx.com >> > > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:35:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Bench ecms - -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Matthews To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 1:00 AM Subject: RE: Bench ecms >Is there any chips that do the lean cruise mode in the '747 stock? Not that I've seen/been able to id. I know >the F-bod TBI's have lean cruise, and a few others... It's seems to be more than a lean cruise, it's a lean mode... Just wondering if the >'747 has that in a stock prgm. I do know that the 454 TBI's hold OL at idle, >is there a location as % open TPS/MAP? >TIA >Tom > Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:17:07 -0600 Subject: Re: fuel pump wiring black and black/white are grnd. Grey is usually power to pump. Shannen andy quaas wrote: > > I have crafted an in-tank fuel pump assembly (GM). I am ready to wire > it up and i don't recall which wire takes the +12 and which is ground. > Anybody know? I don't have any books with this info. > > Andy Quaas > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: MJones Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:59:52 -0600 Subject: IAC longevity problems Hello, all: I have a Holley Projection 4D in a marine application which works very well except for one bothersome problem: I can't keep IAC motors alive for more than a few hours. The IAC used on the Projection is common to Chrysler and, I think, GM applications. The second one just trashed after about 4 hours of engine operation. Both failed the same way. Electrically it seems to work fine, but the threaded rod attached to the pintle seems to cock and stick. Wiggling it slightly frees it up until the next time it sticks. I've checked the obvious things. It's not binding in the throttle body, causing it to wear. It dosn't get terribly hot, since everything, including the exhaust manifolds, are cooled to 160 degrees. Is this a common problem? I wouldn't think so based on the number of them in service. Any ideas or suggestions? Did I just by coincidence receive two defective ones? Holley is no help. Thanks, Mike J. ------------------------------ From: steve ravet Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:40:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Trouble Codes/Limp Home Mode Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Is there a list of which trouble codes actually put the ecm into a > limp home mode, rather than just turn on the SES light?, or > would someone list them please. > TIA > Bruce How can you tell if you're in limp home mode? I'm having a code 43 (ESC)/knock problem with my V8 S-10. When the SES light comes on, it loses power and starts running a lot hotter. Turning the engine off and back on resets the light and gets it running good again. Is that limp home mode? I call it PITA mode. - --steve - -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:11:24 -0400 Subject: Re: IAC longevity problems - -----Original Message----- From: MJones To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Subject: IAC longevity problems Electrically it >seems to work fine, but the threaded rod attached to the pintle seems to >cock and stick. Wiggling it slightly frees it up until the next time it >sticks. > Sounds like the distance from the mounting "face" to the orfice is too great allowing the pintle to be hyper extended, and too much of a load for the stepper motor. Might try to find out how to extend it, installed, and record that lenght, and compare it to someone else's That's all I can think of. Cheers Bruce > >Thanks, > >Mike J. > > ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:09:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Blankety blank blank. I had this same problem with some older 2716's and 2732, they would not erase. I left them in for hours! I asked this same question, Is it a UVA vs UVB problem? I think that the lowcost dataerase mentioned something about this, but can't exactly remember. The solution to the problem was to get a bunch of 2817's and shine it on. Check your programmer for compatibility, mine needed an adapter board. Sandy At 09:51 PM 8/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >Well, since I've read that an ultra violet lamp can erase >eproms, I tried it. Set a timer for 3 mins with my lamp on >the chip,checked it with the burner, not blank. 5 mins, 10 >mins, 20 mins; not blank. Got to "The heck with it" and >left it on for an hour (with six chips under it), still not >blank. What gives? > >Lamp reads "UV-A Ultra Violet" and "BLE-270W". Wrong >frequency? Knowing how well my CSH fits, I made sure to >take the stickers off the little window. Left one in the >sunlight for a (long) while, and it was blank when I >checked. > >Yes, I know this is crude. Yes, I know an eraser is the >proper way. Yes I'm going to buy one. In the mean time, >why won't these chips erase? > >Shannen > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:21:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Trouble Codes/Limp Home Mode - -----Original Message----- From: steve ravet To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 12:18 PM Subject: Re: Trouble Codes/Limp Home Mode >How can you tell if you're in limp home mode? I'm having a code 43 >(ESC)/knock problem with my V8 S-10. When the SES light comes on, it >loses power and starts running a lot hotter. Turning the engine off and >back on resets the light and gets it running good again. Is that limp >home mode? I call it PITA mode. Hmm, ya didn't read my tune-up tips??.. Go to a junk yard, and get a couple different esc's the little 3"squares about 3/4" thick with the knock filtering one em (usually $5 each). One by one try them till you get rid of the code 43, and no audible knock. Or do away with the malfunction flag for the code 43. Some of the 747's were known for false 43's, and I could imagine the same for the 6965's. (Hint, Hint try the esc's off a buick v-6).......... Cheers Bruce Ya got a bin?. > >--steve > >-- >Steve Ravet >International Meta Systems >http://www.imes.com >steve@xxx.com > ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:07:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Bench ecms On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com wrote: > There is a TPS,MAP and MPH setting for closed/open loop in the 747, I'll get > those addresses for you if you need,(very handy for calibrating large cams > that don't like to idle at stoich(actually it's the PI controller in the 747's Please do tell. Mine is certainly not gonna idle at stoich. BTW--whatcha mean by "PI"?? - -greg ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:09:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Blankety blank blank. Shannen, How close to the lamp did you put the chips. I have a small database II chip eraser. The chip window sits less than a 1/16" from the glass of the UV tube. If you need some erased I can clean a few for you. Ken Kelly Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Well, since I've read that an ultra violet lamp can erase > eproms, I tried it. Set a timer for 3 mins with my lamp on > the chip,checked it with the burner, not blank. 5 mins, 10 > mins, 20 mins; not blank. Got to "The heck with it" and > left it on for an hour (with six chips under it), still not > blank. What gives? > > Lamp reads "UV-A Ultra Violet" and "BLE-270W". Wrong > frequency? Knowing how well my CSH fits, I made sure to > take the stickers off the little window. Left one in the > sunlight for a (long) while, and it was blank when I > checked. > > Yes, I know this is crude. Yes, I know an eraser is the > proper way. Yes I'm going to buy one. In the mean time, > why won't these chips erase? > > Shannen ------------------------------ From: MJones Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:17:30 -0600 Subject: RE: IAC longevity problems Is it critical, then, that the IAC never be allowed to reach the ends of its travel? What happens to the IAC motor if the throttle blades are set such that the idle rpm can't come down into control range? The IAC would go full closed. Would the IAC motor be damaged by this? Similarly, the 4D opens the IAC a fixed amount during each start sequence. No matter where it was when last operated, it opens it further. What happens to the motor if, when tuning/adjusting etc. you crank the engine over several times in succession but never start it. The IAC goes open further each time until reaching the end of its travel. Would this damage it? If so, how does GM handle this scenario? Beginning to sound to me like the closed throttle angle must be set such that the IAC does not go full closed, and that the IAC be disconnected during fiddling. Any other ideas? Mike Jones Bruce Plecan wrote: Sounds like the distance from the mounting "face" to the orfice is too great allowing the pintle to be hyper extended, and too much of a load for the stepper motor. Might try to find out how to extend it, installed, and record that lenght, and compare it to someone else's That's all I can think of. Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:45:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Blankety blank blank. I set the lamp on the chip. The bulb was right on the little window. Group consensus is different frequency needed. They're in a window sill now, I can wait a couple of days. Thanks for the offer, I might just take you up on it. I should just buy the burner and get it done with, though. Shannen Ken Kelly wrote: > > Shannen, > How close to the lamp did you put the chips. I have a small > database II chip eraser. The chip window sits less than a > 1/16" from the glass of the UV tube. If you need some erased > I can clean a few for you. > > Ken Kelly > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > Well, since I've read that an ultra violet lamp can erase > > eproms, I tried it. Set a timer for 3 mins with my lamp on > > the chip,checked it with the burner, not blank. 5 mins, 10 > > mins, 20 mins; not blank. Got to "The heck with it" and > > left it on for an hour (with six chips under it), still not > > blank. What gives? > > > > Lamp reads "UV-A Ultra Violet" and "BLE-270W". Wrong > > frequency? Knowing how well my CSH fits, I made sure to > > take the stickers off the little window. Left one in the > > sunlight for a (long) while, and it was blank when I > > checked. > > > > Yes, I know this is crude. Yes, I know an eraser is the > > proper way. Yes I'm going to buy one. In the mean time, > > why won't these chips erase? > > > > Shannen ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:54:45 -0600 Subject: Re: IAC longevity problems MJones wrote: > > Is it critical, then, that the IAC never be allowed to reach the ends of > its travel? What happens to the IAC motor if the throttle blades are set > such that the idle rpm can't come down into control range? The IAC would > go full closed. Would the IAC motor be damaged by this? Similarly, the 4D > opens the IAC a fixed amount during each start sequence. No matter where > it was when last operated, it opens it further. What happens to the motor > if, when tuning/adjusting etc. you crank the engine over several times in > succession but never start it. The IAC goes open further each time until > reaching the end of its travel. Would this damage it? If so, how does GM > handle this scenario? The IAC *should* bottom out before it is overextended. Mismatched IAC, incorrect machining, possibly too thick gasket on the base could cause problems. If minimum air is too high, IAC will extend pintle fully in GM system, and full extension is limited by depth of the passage. Then the ecm can tell when the end of travel is reached, and stores a value for minimum IAC counts. > > Beginning to sound to me like the closed throttle angle must be set such > that the IAC does not go full closed, and that the IAC be disconnected > during fiddling. Any other ideas? Put a daub of grease on the end of the pintle. Install ( very carefully) the IAC with the pintle extended, see if it's bottoming out and marking the grease. You should be able to tell witthout applying too much force to the screws. Find another ProJection to compare it to. Another possibility, although not likely, is that the IAC was extended when installed, and forced against the seat too hard, damaging it. Just some thoughts. Shannen > > Mike Jones > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Sounds like the distance from the mounting "face" to the orfice is > too great allowing the pintle to be hyper extended, and too much of a load > for the stepper motor. Might try to find out how to extend it, > installed, and record that lenght, and compare it to someone else's > That's all I can think of. > Cheers > Bruce ------------------------------ From: Chris Rhodin Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:00:18 -0700 Subject: RE: Blankety blank blank. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC783.B8CD56F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All this talk of erasing EPROMs reminded me that the requirements for = erasing are in the databooks. From the 1993 AMD EPROM Products manual: "A dosage of 15 W sec/cm^2 is required to completely erase an EPROM. = This dosage can be obtained by exposure to an ultraviolet = lamp--wavelength of 2537 Angstroms--with intensity of 12,000 uW/cm^2 for = 15 to 20 minutes. The EPROM should be directly under and about one inch = from the source and all filters should be removed from the UV light = source prior to erasure." The manual goes on to warn that any wavelength less than 4000 Angstroms = will eventually erase the device and appropriate precautions should be = used (opaque labels). >From personal experience (the hard way) I've learned not to trust the = blank test of an EPROM programmer. An EPROM is erased when the charge = stored on the floating gate will not read as 0 (assuming an uncharged = gate will read as 1) at all combinations of power supply voltage and = temperature that fall in the specified operating range. An EPROM will = read blank on a typical programmer long before the floating gates are = completely discharged. My eraser will erase an EPROM to the blank state = in as little as three minutes. The recommended erase time for my eraser = is 20 minutes, that means you should take the time to erase to blank and = multiply it by seven to get the full erase time. Chris - ---------- From: Sandy Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 11:09 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Blankety blank blank. I had this same problem with some older 2716's and 2732, they would not erase. I left them in for hours! I asked this same question, Is it a UVA = vs UVB problem? I think that the lowcost dataerase mentioned something = about this, but can't exactly remember. The solution to the problem was to = get a bunch of 2817's and shine it on. Check your programmer for = compatibility, mine needed an adapter board. Sandy At 09:51 PM 8/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >Well, since I've read that an ultra violet lamp can erase >eproms, I tried it. Set a timer for 3 mins with my lamp on >the chip,checked it with the burner, not blank. 5 mins, 10 >mins, 20 mins; not blank. Got to "The heck with it" and >left it on for an hour (with six chips under it), still not >blank. What gives? > >Lamp reads "UV-A Ultra Violet" and "BLE-270W". Wrong >frequency? Knowing how well my CSH fits, I made sure to >take the stickers off the little window. Left one in the >sunlight for a (long) while, and it was blank when I >checked. =20 > >Yes, I know this is crude. Yes, I know an eraser is the >proper way. Yes I'm going to buy one. In the mean time, >why won't these chips erase? > >Shannen >=20 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC783.B8CD56F0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjsUAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA GgAAAFJFOiBCbGFua2V0eSBibGFuayBibGFuay4AqQgBBYADAA4AAADOBwgADgANAAAAEgAFAA8B ASCAAwAOAAAAzgcIAA4ADAAcAAEABQAZAQEJgAEAIQAAADQ0RDBENkJBOUEzM0QyMTFCQzRDMDBB MEM5MjQ1NEE2ACAHAQOQBgCcCQAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA AwA2AAAAAABAADkAYE0HKb7HvQEeAHAAAQAAABoAAABSRTogQmxhbmtldHkgYmxhbmsgYmxhbmsu AAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb3HvikButbQRTOaEdK8TACgySRUpgAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAA AAAeAB8MAQAAABIAAABjaHJpc0BpbWFnZWlvLmNvbQAAAAMABhBXuv5vAwAHEEUIAAAeAAgQAQAA AGUAAABBTExUSElTVEFMS09GRVJBU0lOR0VQUk9NU1JFTUlOREVETUVUSEFUVEhFUkVRVUlSRU1F TlRTRk9SRVJBU0lOR0FSRUlOVEhFREFUQUJPT0tTRlJPTVRIRTE5OTNBTURFUFJPAAAAAAIBCRAB AAAAEAgAAAwIAAD6DQAATFpGdX23WZv/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAG wwKDMgPGBxMCgyIzD3poZWwDIERs6mcCgzQTDX0KgAjPCdniOxefMjU1AoAKgQ2xwQtgbmcxMDMU IAsKOxLyDAFjAEATcBURdGgHBAAcsAdAayBvZiANBJBhAJAaoCBFUFJsT00EIBegbQuADbBk9iAH gByxYQVAHMAfIBeg2HF1aR6BCfB0BCACEL8FwB2WCsAfIAuAH4NkH2ABAaBvb2tzLiAghkYDYR+D MTk5MxNwJE1EHgQgUANgZHXWYyBxA4F1B0A6CoUKhYQiQSIAb3NhZx8gQR1hMTUgVyAR8GPwL2Nt XhIgHOEf1R7w6HRvIAWgbQtQEgAVAL55HYMfIAORHhMioVQc0tUmZWMDkWImsWIBkAuA5R7hYilh eHAmcAhwHyEjKLADkXVsdB2gdmkbBvASACALYCjwLS13dy2wFQAJ8GccwB1SGdAztjcTcBqgcy2Q A3BzLnHeaS8RC4ApMACBdClgJtLYMiwwMcAtYFcnhCCi3ycBKKEB0B8AC4B1KTAikqcqkB8gI/Rz aAhgbCwx7yHxIBEkoClRdR7BBcAAcP8e8CJBM4AdUCwQIZERsCCQdSLmcwhhYynCNkEVEWbfAxAp MBHgNIkegW8usB7wiTdXVVYuIGlnaAVAfTflcAUQBbEooR2SLNEujiIlXDPyJOQgZ28Hkf8CICiS LpAEoR9DAHApYC6Z7ykQBBEfQQOgNDHCL8c/UPsDEAMgZS6wAjAlESlXIdPVQtBpOCZwPABvPAEf YHs74gWQYTOALdAGMTSYdesR8B7wKEUQYR/wHyALYGErkGxzKS4KiwzQMb40QZAbXxxgCoUi03A5 Eb8CID6BLIEGcQnwOCEoH5IHEcEe8C6QeSkgSSfPLrBA4T9xHuFubx9xKLD/LZBG8B90AmAAcB1A M5E2oXcdcCnmO/FvCcAuQAeAcv8ioS/AI+Uc4SmDTSEU8CG0/xGyJqEv8AWwHuE/Ah+hGnD2bx9g HdJnRVJCg05iF6DuYTZBBCAx4CgdsCzAHqF/IUEtUTcRU5Ie8FVYVjYx701wP9IVESjRYguAVPFG EnsdYSygdzXxLMBE4ClRdv8G8AGQJqE2IikwKPAdkUMQWyziH1JmOJIhpXNLYGP/BpAIkFQxXMMd 0h2gGqA88C9RmViYT3Q/AWEcsHlw/0RQPoFQ6C4gAiAd8CuQIKH/Q8RUywQgIWIo2TUwBPBX1P0i oU0pZQXAQoQpm06TT0f/L/BFUiGhVoE7MAJAKRBWcv8cwAnRM001UQNwIEEe0kOFuwdxIJNtZvcc 4TMoLB80uweABiJ5CGA0hgGQa0PE321TPGUs8090NiJtLXEFIP8pUTCALEIR8ELhKJImoB90vmYt cGe2bVJINgqFQ2sAzwQAJVwK9DswMTgxwAIAnGktSTNJHAvCMTYKoPcDYCkwJKAgLnB7RgqHefv3 DDB6xiLSOnxOesYMggYC/GR5e+98/QZgAjB+L387FSLQaSIQeW9QQXVnL07ySTBvUCNhOCNQMTrM MDmAX3z9VG+Cn387yTUweV8NwGlAioEa4CQyLi7hLm8c0G8tH2mTiyAkgIZPgW51YmqnNWGIb387 UmWOwEJPgj8SAClgT3RPc3YNeCYzNu9JZxXCDAF6xklM4SiBHNL/JoAfEUTxAmAekEJxLxE34Kcf EQbwNeIyN3qQJ2UB7zYxl7CLAG9SZUAhNLNOYf8KhSmDIqCVMCkQAYAfgiMA7yGhIKI0oRHgIZUh HbBw8N+VekeBL/BGAW9QSQQgc6G3YeA7ACZAdnc2OwBClia+P5UhHMFPoh9WFzB3BaD/TwEiEimE IEJGAR7hlwKgIt8hQTZyCoUcwm9QYjaRK1H+JwVALIAA0DWCICIG0FFj/zPyN+AKQEXyaLaWN2rC dHQeYQqFpJA3Ei9CODE3/5f1NJAsAXOSAiAioXbwBZD/HUBwIQXAYokgoijSVPFaMP9qUYTACoUe oR8gLBAJgB7h/wORVlBE0DkBK4BU4Asgdg2bgAoKhUEFQIYgOjUcYFJQJDA4LzGQL4XBLdowk6Aw b1BwInd60iVG/D5XFQFvUB3BOCFNk1Yzfz+1LWRbwC3YK0Mpg7SWZf9E8TAwncFOwV7CMIAioQZg /54ibVKstCOQHqFCYi8RbeHft8MCILSWUzQFICwRsKuR37nzlqRPMwhwLBByb1BOYr+R1CKwJxC7 koWBCnY+wISpMyRzO7+bR050IjPy86uDMHR0IjYStJaao6rznyCTA5GbskcwlrRpeL2D9wQgNcQw gCm1UUXwVcS0liW/5lcfUmdpLrBzP7u0lrSWTLfSVjIEICI7AOotJkBVtwNWLdPEsyYgEEJMRS2X sDBXIv0ioFcDYBqgtJYDUB/hTFHyeZ/gIEtOYAPwHeE0oI8H4FsgFRFt4UNTSDjB/yBwuYIAwA2w W1Es47zXcOb/nXG+ETkhHWAdcKDTamTQkfUmYHcioUyasjbEH4K0lv0swG47NMYzRzBjMk1wUuD9 AxBlb1A2Ir5iVoFPdFLj3km0lr3lIqHK7llvMpUw3mvQcRy0HOEFAHUNsCKh/90auCZuY9cJRPJn Uk1Q3qTfTYEjAD6wHdJyQnUxQSwQvSKhSSG0b8JtQ63mPlLg/5jypPIfkSmxx5Qpg8rfFOD/AHAs ELzHJbaSr0luesYKhQUWwQDskAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAEAAABAAAcwIMFkprnHvQFAAAgwIMFkprnH vQEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAzE4= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC783.B8CD56F0-- ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:15:20 -0400 Subject: Re: IAC longevity problems - -----Original Message----- From: MJones To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 3:41 PM Subject: RE: IAC longevity problems The below is referenced to my gm knowledge. >Is it critical, then, that the IAC never be allowed to reach the ends of >its travel? In his reference to it being like a gm, you can unscrew the pintle from the motor, at full travel. What happens to the IAC motor if the throttle blades are set >such that the idle rpm can't come down into control range? The IAC would >go full closed. Would the IAC motor be damaged by this? Fully, no, just shy of there, maybe, if improperly machined, yes. Similarly, the 4D >opens the IAC a fixed amount during each start sequence. No matter where >it was when last operated, it opens it further. What happens to the motor >if, when tuning/adjusting etc. you crank the engine over several times in >succession but never start it. The IAC goes open further each time until >reaching the end of its travel. Would this damage it? If so, how does GM >handle this scenario? Different strategy completely, gm doesn't keep retracting the IAC. > >Beginning to sound to me like the closed throttle angle must be set such >that the IAC does not go full closed why do you say that?. , and that the IAC be disconnected >during fiddling. Any other ideas? When setting min idle the IAC is supposed to be unplugged, on the gms. Cheers Bruce > >Mike Jones > > > >Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > >Sounds like the distance from the mounting "face" to the orfice is >too great allowing the pintle to be hyper extended, and too much of a load >for the stepper motor. Might try to find out how to extend it, >installed, and record that lenght, and compare it to someone else's >That's all I can think of. >Cheers >Bruce > > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:35:01 -0400 Subject: Initial Bench ecm testing (Programming 101 included) Grounding the gear switch or not, vss signal or not make no huge difference in injector pulse widths. Using me eyes and O-Scope can measure no differences in pulse length/freguency, but follow up testing to follow with more accurate PWM devices. Applying a lower than desired rpm to the ecm doesn't make the IAC extend fully, matter of fact it stays a fair ways out. When close to but higher than desired rpm it extends all but to about the last 30 counts. There was mention of a 747 bin that cycled the knock counts to 255, then 0 to 255, and kept repeating that, it's BCC ABUL. Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:50:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Blankety blank blank. I have a DataErase II and it will not do some of the older 2716/2732 so something about the type of bulb in the DataErase will not do it for the old dog ROM's. Sandy At 03:09 PM 8/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >Shannen, > How close to the lamp did you put the chips. I have a small >database II chip eraser. The chip window sits less than a >1/16" from the glass of the UV tube. If you need some erased >I can clean a few for you. > > Ken Kelly > >Shannen Durphey wrote: >> >> Well, since I've read that an ultra violet lamp can erase >> eproms, I tried it. Set a timer for 3 mins with my lamp on >> the chip,checked it with the burner, not blank. 5 mins, 10 >> mins, 20 mins; not blank. Got to "The heck with it" and >> left it on for an hour (with six chips under it), still not >> blank. What gives? >> >> Lamp reads "UV-A Ultra Violet" and "BLE-270W". Wrong >> frequency? Knowing how well my CSH fits, I made sure to >> take the stickers off the little window. Left one in the >> sunlight for a (long) while, and it was blank when I >> checked. >> >> Yes, I know this is crude. Yes, I know an eraser is the >> proper way. Yes I'm going to buy one. In the mean time, >> why won't these chips erase? >> >> Shannen > ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:03:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Blankety blank blank. Shannen, The Datarase II I have sells for 39.95 without timer, and 49.95 with a timer. It will hold 4 chips at a time. I thought UV lamps were 15 to $20 then you had to mount them etc. Ken Shannen Durphey wrote: > > I set the lamp on the chip. The bulb was right on the > little window. Group consensus is different frequency > needed. They're in a window sill now, I can wait a couple > of days. Thanks for the offer, I might just take you up on > it. I should just buy the burner and get it done with, > though. > > Shannen > > Ken Kelly wrote: > > > > Shannen, > > How close to the lamp did you put the chips. I have a small > > database II chip eraser. The chip window sits less than a > > 1/16" from the glass of the UV tube. If you need some erased > > I can clean a few for you. > > > > Ken Kelly ------------------------------ From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:39:56 EDT Subject: Re: Cooling fan Operation Hi Roger, It has been my experience that 90% of all 27256 chips have two small ships if you look through the window of the eprom,(but these are TI) and 27512's have one large chip as you look through the window.....I have in the past emptied my buffer and read a 256 as a 512 and looked at the file size to tell me which it is.....one other way is to read it as a 256 or 512 and spend a couple of minutes finding the checksum, if you can't find it, usually you have chosen the wrong file size......or if you want send me one as a 256 and one as a 512 and I'll figure it out......Thanks, - -Carl Summers ------------------------------ From: Jim Lill Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:46:21 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Re: L-Jet->LH-Jet I thought the output was inverse. Also, the LH needs the burn-off cycle. On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 xxalexx@xxx.com wrote: > > Has anyone ever heard of an adapter that allows a LH-Jet Hotwire meter to > > replace a L-Jet flap type? > > > I was working on a intercept box, the voltage range seems about > indentical except is half. example at idle L = 3 V idle LH = 1.5 V > The curve should be different?, L -log LH linear ? > alex > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V3 #378 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".